MiSTer FPGA

[twistedsymphony]

I dunno, I either care enough to want to run a real board, or I don't really care enough that all I want is convenience and good enough emulation. If MisTer provides that at some point great. Right now it's more effort to set up than I want to think about.

I'm with you there. I've been slowly getting rid of all my old emulation junk. These days for me MAME is a tool to help fix and hack my original boards.

I used to think emulation was good enough on my platforms that it's nearly impossible to tell but I've learned that's not the case. I play original hardware so frequently that whenever I play something emulated it's immediately obvious, and that's even with Goovymame on a CRT, which is about as good as emulation gets. That's not even the worst part, the worst part is pretty much every emulation setup I've owned I've spent 80% of my time with it tweaking the settings/frontend/controls/romset/etc. I feel like you're never done because a new/better front end or emulator or romset seems to be released faster than I have time to sort through the last one.

I haven't had a chance to play anything on Mister yet but I'm hoping it's better enough compared to emulation that I can use it to play games that I like enough to play occasionally but don't love enough to justify buying at their market value (hence my comment earlier about $500 SHMUPs).

 

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

“enough that all I want is convenience and good enough emulation“

This is me as well..I have a MiSTer but have not played around with it much but how I see it moving forward

MiSTer with CRT - Consoles pre-PS1
Raspberry Pie 4 with CRT - MAME, Naomi

Once the MiSTer arcade cores are in par with MAME, then I will move to MiSTer or equivalent.. I will avoid going back and setting up a GroovyMame PC setup again due to how time consuming that setup is and will do pie.

 

[Aurich]

the worst part is pretty much every emulation setup I've owned I've spent 80% of my time with it tweaking the settings/frontend/controls/romset/etc

Yup. And that's cool, it's fun to do it all. But I definitely think that's the case. And the more games you have in your list the less games you play is my experience.

 

[ShootTheCore]

As far as setup and update convenience goes, I can confirm that MiSTer is much better now than it was 1-2 years ago. There’s a slick automatic update script that keeps the OS and cores up to date for you against the official repository. The menu front-end and controller binding functionality is also much better than it used to be. Much like the Darksoft Multis with their ROM packs, you can download a Smokemonster-derived MiSTer ROM pack that has most of the games already organized into to the proper folders for you-just extract to the SD card.

If you’re the casual type that just wants to play games and don’t want to tinker all the time with software and settings, that’s absolutely possible now. That’s definitely how I’ve been using it!

 

[donluca]

It does not take a computer more expensive than a mister to run groovymame properly, that argument is silly. You can get a 3ghz+ i5 well under $100, toss in a $20 GPU and off you go.

Cool, now add a PSU, case, hard disk and RAM and let's see what's the price.

Oh, and MiSTer is tiny, so unless you're willing to spend quite a bit for a dedicated small case you'll end up with a big and heavy thing.

The irony of all this, is that I'm defending the PC setup while not disregarding the MiSTer, but you're really trying hard making the PC setup look suboptimal.

EDIT: and "off you go spending hours on the internet learning how to slim down a windows installation, configuring it by removing all the unnecessary services, installing and configuring the correct drivers and custom resolutions and installing and configuring properly the various emulators".

Yeah, "off you go" buddy.

 

[twistedsymphony]

Cool, now add a PSU, case, hard disk and RAM and let's see what's the price.

I hadd 3 GoovyMAME PCs setup using old HPs: https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Compaq-...719910?hash=item4450673fa6:g:0lMAAOSwsnVeD425

the usually end around $50-$100 and have the specs that @rewrite mentioned, buy that plus $20 on an ATi card for use with CRT_EmuDriver and you have a fairly capable dedicated MAME machine. it's not super compact but it's roughly the size of a NAOMI so not unreasonable.

 

[Cloggerdude]

I don't mean to go way off topic for this thread, but what is the control setup for a GroovyMAME system? Are you still using USB, or is there a way to wire directly to reduce lag? If it's USB, how is that different from MiSTer?

Also, in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't trying to be argumentative at all in my prior comments. I'm picking up a Candy Cab soon, so I'm legitimately trying to learn more about my options and what might be best for my setup. I'm not opposed to a GroovyMAME setup if that's the better option. I read up on it this morning and, while it sounds pretty complicated to setup, it doesn't seem all that bad. Part of the fun for me is just tinkering with this stuff anyway.

 

[twistedsymphony]

I don't mean to go way off topic for this thread, but what is the control setup for a GroovyMAME system?

GroovyMAME is just regular MAME with some modifications for better arcade CRT support. So it's control options are the same as regular MAME.

Honestly the better option depends on what you want to play. a PC can essentially play anything that's ever been emulated. Mister can only play things that have cores available so far.

in terms of accuracy that depends on the emulator, and that depends on the core.

At the end of the day what matters are the specific games that you want to play and which option is better for those specific games.

 

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

Nothing can compete with GroovyMame with a comparable video card, ATOM15khz flash bios on video card (or whatever is called) and a Jpac, period.. I have been building this setup for many moons now..if you have the time to do this then invest the time and effort to set that up on your cab..this is what I have running inside my blastcity. There is lag and you will notice it if you play on real hardware but it is not much.. I usually fire up an NES emulator and run Mario bros to see how much lag there is.. I have been playing with GroovyMame for so long that the lag does not bother me or got used to it BUT I would not play NES on a GroovyMame setup because of the lag.. there is also RetroArch setup with run ahed for emulator but I have not try that..

 

[donluca]

I hadd 3 GoovyMAME PCs setup using old HPs: https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Compaq-...719910?hash=item4450673fa6:g:0lMAAOSwsnVeD425
the usually end around $50-$100 and have the specs that @rewrite mentioned, buy that plus $20 on an ATi card for use with CRT_EmuDriver and you have a fairly capable dedicated MAME machine. it's not super compact but it's roughly the size of a NAOMI so not unreasonable.

I've built as well a dedicated emulation box (mainly GroovyMAME) and still have all the prices of the components I've bought:

Intel G3258 (overclocked to 4.8Ghz) – 67,55€
AsRock H81M-G – 42,15€
AMD HD5450 (used) – 20€
Antec VP350P – 23,50€
4GB RAM (used) – 24€
Small form factor case – 46€
Hard disk – free (I used an old SATA drive I had around)

Total: 223,2€

And I've done all I could to keep costs down. With this I could play all games (even CV1K back when they weren't optimized) 100% full speed and most other games with a big frame_delay values and all emus ran without a hitch.
It was 2015.

If you want to buy pre-built PCs used, that's alright and you save some pennies, but you still have to do massive work to have it run properly and I'm not sure how fast, MAME-wise that i5 would be compared to a massively overclocked G3258.

For the average Joe, the MiSTer is a steal considering its ease of use compared to a dedicated PC Build.

 

[rewrite]

Cool, now add a PSU, case, hard disk and RAM and let's see what's the price.

I'm talking about a full machine. Used Lenovo/Dell/etc workstations are a dime a dozen. You can regularly pick them up under 80 shipped on eBay.

If you want to buy pre-built PCs used, that's alright and you save some pennies, but you still have to do massive work to have it run properly and I'm not sure how fast, MAME-wise that i5 would be compared to a massively overclocked G3258.

Same amount of work whether it was pre-built or not (less, actually since you don't need to piece together the PC). And it runs everything just fine. *shrugs*

There's a space for Mister, sure. But saying it's cheaper than setting up GroovyMAME simply isn't true.

 

[ShootTheCore]

There's a space for Mister, sure. But saying it's cheaper than setting up GroovyMAME simply isn't true.

Having setup both GroovyMAME and a MiSTer, IMHO:

Cheaper in terms of money spent purchasing the hardware - no advantage. Although you are comparing years-used PC hardware to brand-new MiSTer hardware.

Cheaper in terms of time and frustration setting up and configuring GroovyMAME software and drivers to a point where its performance and latency equals MiSTer - not even close.

My time is valuable, and I can get a practically lag-free full MiSTer rig going in less than 30 minutes. And most of the time is just waiting for the files to write to the SD card. It’s very plug and play.

 

[donluca]

But saying it's cheaper than setting up GroovyMAME simply isn't true.

That's the worst point possible you could've picked to make a GM > MiSTer comparison.

It took me almost 1 year to fine tune everything on my GM PC and I was still tinkering after. I think I've spent way more time tinkering than playing on that machine, which is just plain wrong.

Let's just say that you go for a "general purpose" PC without doing all the slimming down of Windows' installation disk and whatever... and let's even say that you get a prebuilt PC and you're incredibly lucky because it already has and AMD HDxxxx card in it, so you don't even have to open it, put the graphic card in and close it.

Then you have the windows installation which is ~30 minutes.

Installation of all the necessary drivers (and god forbid if windows update actually decides to download automatically the AMD drivers as you'll need a custom software to properly remove them) - at least another 30 minutes.

Install the CRT EmuDrivers, set up VMMaker, get MAME, get GroovyMAME, create the standard configuration file and tweak it to your needs - 1 hour.

Tweak several settings (USB polling rate, frame_delay for each game) and install all the other emulators you want and get all the rom sets in - one entire day.

You said you've set up 3 GM PCs but at this point I'm wondering if you're straight out lying or you just dd'ed or carbon copied one installation over the others and never cared to properly set them up.

If you didn't, MiSTer will give you already a more accurate and less laggy experience out of the box.

And again, I can't help but stress about how ironic this whole situation is.

I love GroovyMAME and hate all the FPGA hype that's been around since it had become a buzzword for "accurate hardware reproduction of original console/arcade PCBs", but, man, you're really making me having a hard time pushing my cause through and letting people understand that an emulator is as good as the coder makes it – and GroovyMAME and PC emulation is still way ahead of any FPGA out there.

So, please, make myself (and yourself) a favor: do some research and if you want to come along and let people understand why GM and accurate emus like blast'em and bsnes/higan are still better than an FPGA implementation, please choose what it *REALLY* makes them better, instead of talking out of your ass and making a fool of yourself.

 

[rewrite]

@donluca I'm not making a comparison. I took issue with one point you made several posts back, because it was incorrect. I corrected it. Groovymame is the cheaper option.

I didn't comment on any other points, or make any other comparisons. It costs fewer dollars to set up groovymame than mister.

 

[Aurich]

I dunno what we're really comparing here, but tbh it feels dumb.

How's Final Fight on Mister? Guwange? Street Fighter Alpha 3? Gunbarich?

I think you get the point. Right now it's a fun toy for nerding out on, but if you want to run games that don't have cores who cares?

 

[donluca]

Groovymame is the cheaper option.

Then let me tell you that at that point a raspberry pi is a cheaper option and it's able to output native resolution and correct refresh rates just like GM and it runs everything up to PSX.

The whole point it's never been what's cheaper in absolute terms (ie: money), but what's the best accuracy/cost/involvement solution at the moment and I'm telling you that an old i5 with an improperly set-up GroovyMAME is worse than MiSTer.

With MiSTer you buy the boards, put the correct files and ROMs in your SD and "off you go" (cit.)

With a PC you have to go through all the steps I stated above and, yes, it might be cheaper, but at that point you're compromising so much that it doesn't make sense at all, you might as well use your everyday PC, unless you're going to spend lots of time properly configuring it (and hoping that the old i5 holds up well enough when you kick in frame_delay or want to play newer games – or 3D for that matter).

And if you want the cheapest plug'n'play solution available there's a Raspberry Pi, which is the poor cousin of MiSTer: costs less, it's way less accurate, it's more laggy, but it can still output the game's native resolution and refresh rate and just like MiSTer all you need to do is just put the files on an SD card.

The closing remark I'm going to make (and that will be it from me on this matter) is that, as someone else already mentioned, not all of us have much spare time and we'd like to invest our scarce free time playing instead of mucking around with settings and configurations.

That's what makes MiSTer the new king of the hill.

And a new CPS1 core is in the works. SH-x based boards are already on the roadmap and it won't be long until most of the well known arcade games will be emulated and their accuracy will only grow over time as coders will refine the cores.

GM is still the way to go for those who want a "perfect solution", willing to spend a bit more money than MiSTer and invest lots and lots of time learning and properly configuring their PC, but as time passes, MiSTer is gonna catch up and then we'll have a nice, nifty box which is going to be indistinguishable from the original hardware at a ridiculous price and with a high quality and low lag scaler integrated for modern LCD monitors as well.

 

[XtraSmiley]

Man, all these posts and I thought something major happened!

So, question for all you experts, ignoring money and time, if emulation in MAME (or GM) is perfect and the core is perfect in MISTer, which one is more PCB accurate?

I think it's the MISTer solution because of the lack of additional lag. Am I correct? Why or why not?

 

[ShootTheCore]

Given a specific JAMMA game, and assuming that the both the emulator and FPGA core are well-implemented and optimized as best they can given the parameters of their host hardware, the MiSTer/FPGA solution would likely be better because emulators have to run on top of a host operating system, and the OS can steal resources and CPU cycles from the emulator at any time. With the FPGA, the entire system is dedicated to only running that game and nothing else - arguably just like the original arcade board (ie. a computer dedicated to only executing one specific program with no host OS in between the game and the hardware). Emulation performs its simulation in software while FPGA performs its simulation in hardware.

The author of the SNES emulator BSNES, byuu, wrote an excellent article that compares software emulators to FPGAs. His comparison is written against the Analogue Super NT FPGA console, but it applies equally to the MiSTer and its FPGA cores. Highly recommended reading for anyone that's comparing original hardware vs emulator vs FPGA.

https://byuu.org/articles/fpgas-arent-magic

 

[Aurich]

Emulation performs its simulation in software while FPGA performs its simulation in hardware.

I literally typed "but there's nothing magic about that", and then looked at your link title before I went on, and went "oh". Heh.

For me the bottom line is if I really care about something I'll get the board. That's kind of what we're about here right? If I don't care enough to own the board, well, I probably don't really care if the accuracy is 97% or 99%, you know?

I'm not against anything. Mister will get better over time because it has people who are enthusiastic about it. Without that nobody will care enough to bother. So be enthusiastic! I just don't feel a burning need to get in now. It's like Steam Early Access, I'll just wait and check out the final game later.

 

[rewrite]

@donluca you just seem incredibly intent on arguing for God knows what reason and I just don't have the energy for it.