Darksoft Neo Multi Help thread

[Locutus73]

Its not drama, that's why I capped the word "want" and not "you".


The cart is designed to work with a stock BIOS. If you don't have a stock BIOS you've introduced a variable not found in the original hardware. It's not an opinion and it's not up for debate.

The flashcart is a hardware emulator of a real cart and should provide equal outputs given equal inputs, at least after a game is loaded, and this is not up for debate.

@Locutus73 and @Malenko
I can settle this up for you guys in a few short true statements.

Q: UniBIOS functions like hardware BIOS?
A: No.

Q: What about UniBIOS is different?
A: It pulls the "Neo-Geo" logo from the cart header to save limited flash space for additional/expanded functions (like cheat codes for example).

Q: Why is this a problem with Darksoft Multi carts?
A: Because the cart header is blank until the multi cart flashes it, UniBIOS attempts to pull data from a part of memory that hasn't been written (yet).

Q: Is who is to blame for this glitched logo from a purely technical (non-fanboy) standpoint?
A: Razoola is at fault for not storing the logo inside the BIOS itself, this is the standard established by official BIOS.

Yes he has a good reason for doing this, more space for features/functions... However this can't change the fact that he isn't following the established structure/format.

We could revert the reasoning saying the flash cart is not providing the required data in the same amount of time as expected by real cart, thus not providing the same functional behavior… anyway, we are not discussing garbled boot logo here, which is a flashcart software vs bios software issue, prior to game loading, so an egg vs chicken issue which can be avoided with a specific option (I don’t remember if it’s from DarkSoft or Unibios, but I don’t care since there is one).
We are discussing a hypothetical (did anyone double check that) functional behavior mismatch between a real cart and a flashcart on a MVS+Unibios in AES mode after the game is loaded, and then, when the flascart should work 100% as a real game cart. This is for sure an edge case for a hardware emulator (like a flashcart), but good hardware emulators are specifically tested on edge cases. Add to this that DarkSoft already stated that he will disable the flashcart MVS/AES function in presence of Unibios implying he expects his flashcart to behave as real carts in this regard.

Regards.

Locutus73

 

[jassin000]

To me its really a very minor issue, but because the question of fanboyism was raised I felt I needed to dispel the myth.
Lots of folks I think assume I'm a Darksoft fanboy, because I spend lots of time here and I own all his devices (well not the Deco multi haha)

Truth is I spent lots of time on NG.com back in the day, and specifically NG chat (before the site drama and admin abuse became too much for me to stand)...
I've actually spoken with Razoola in person, and guess what?
I think he is a smart guy, who deserves our respect!

Now that being said, I think he was wrong to ask for a software block to be placed on CPS2 multi.
Because why? He owns that decrypted code? Nope sorry, that is incorrect logic...
But just because we disagree, don't mean I hate the man or that his contribution to the scene wasn't critically important.

I believe the reason for the above discussion is the function of the aes mode in the unibios with the multicart. Though it shouldn't be an issue as this feature will be implemented in the menu sometime.

Ah, gotcha.
I wouldn't know anything about AES mode because even tho I am currently a UniBIOS user I view Neo-Geo as a arcade system (ie why you would ever run AES mode is beyond me).

 

[archimage]

Don't worry about unibios compatibility it's just a cloud passing by, as an early adopter I accept to spend to revert to stock to make things simpler to troubleshoot for the moment.

I am sure the multi will kick some ass in the next updates... so please wait if you want to have the bang for your buck, every DS product was ported to great achievement with 100% compatibility

 

[Locutus73]

I believe the reason for the above discussion is the function of the aes mode in the unibios with the multicart. Though it shouldn't be an issue as this feature will be implemented in the menu sometime.

Ah, gotcha.I wouldn't know anything about AES mode because even tho I am currently a UniBIOS user I view Neo-Geo as a arcade system (ie why you would ever run AES mode is beyond me).

Yup, the point was MVS/AES function and not the garbled boot logo. Anyway IIRC it seems to me that DS approach is to optionally disable any flashcart special function after the game is loaded. I find this approach very clever and similar to the SD2SNES (SNES flashcart) one where you can enable or disable in game hooks. This way you can opt between having special features, but not 100% real cart behavior or trying to emulate a real cart with 100% accuracy. In the latter case Unibios MVS/AES and region select functions should work.

Regards.

Locutus73

 

[Locutus73]

To me its really a very minor issue, but because the question of fanboyism was raised I felt I needed to dispel the myth.
Lots of folks I think assume I'm a Darksoft fanboy, because I spend lots of time here and I own all his devices (well not the Deco multi haha)

Truth is I spent lots of time on NG.com back in the day, and specifically NG chat (before the site drama and admin abuse became too much for me to stand)...
I've actually spoken with Razoola in person, and guess what?
I think he is a smart guy, who deserves our respect!

I raised the fanboyism issue but I wasn’t referring to you. I was responding to @Malenko who said “Just because you WANT”, shifting the conversation from technical to personal. Honestly, I’m on both forums and I’m having great fun here and there… and honestly, I see many people here taking conversation as personal issues here. I don’t belong to any crowd, I’m not a DarkSoft fan, I’m not a Razoola fan, I’m not a Terraonion fan, I’m just an end user who is trying to have fun with his toys and discussing about his toys. But this is 100% off topic.

Regards.

Locutus73

 

[plx2016]

oh dear, i just wanted to ask for some help,..

anyway, I don't care about pro/contra Raz, I like the unibios as much as the mvs multi.

Since we don't have a statement from DS (hope he's enjoying his days off), it could be a bug that will be solved via firmware AND
it would be interesting if Metal slug 3 (original cart) will work flawlessly in console mode with unibios 3.3. (though I think it will...)

Could anyone test?

 

[jassin000]

it would be interesting if Metal slug 3 (original cart) will work flawlessly in console mode with unibios 3.3. (though I think it will...)

I can test this tonight when I get back home...

MVS 1FZ
UniBIOS 3.4 (I also have 3.3, but 3.4 is latest)
Metal Slug 3 MVS cart (100% original, all masks zero repairs)
Darksoft Multi MVS cart (latest firmware+menu)

English AES mode correct?

 

[Mitsurugi-w]

The plan is to have the cart work with the Unibios. We aren't going to just not support it at all. Darksoft has asked me to test games in console mode and I will begin doing that. We will use the info you guys give us in your tests and the tests I do for future fixes. Sorry that the updates for this cart have not come very quickly. The plan is for the guy working on the menu to release one more version and he will then move on (at his request). After that we expect much quicker updates and possibly some other surprises.

Some of you may have noticed that Darksoft has not been around here a lot in the last few weeks. That will be changing as he starts to feel better. We will talk more about that later also. For the time being please be patient and let's not start any flaming wars with each other. The end goal is still to be the best multi cart. We are just getting over a few unexpected personal roadblocks from different members of the multi team.

The AES mutli is still coming. Fine tuning the MVS multi is still underway. CPS1 multi is almost certainly going to happen.

Thanks guys.

PS-I was reading the patreon page for the new Saturn multi that is being released. The comments about his menu are almost identical to a lot that we have gotten. It's kinda funny. You really will not please everyone with your menu designs. This has nothing to do with the Unibios or console mode, just thought it was amusing.

 

[Malenko]

@Locutus73 name calling is kind of petty doncha think? Anyways, I've been called worse things than a darksoft fanboy.

 

[Locutus73]

@Locutus73 name calling is kind of petty doncha think? Anyways, I've been called worse things than a darksoft fanboy.

Please re-read my original post, I said “I just don’t get this personalization of all issues, this is a technical forum, not a football fan forum.“, referring not only to your posts, but to earlier debates too; I didn’t call you any name. The fanboyism argument was raised by @jassin000 who felt involved in the discussion and I told him I was replying to you.
Ok, you could draw a line from “football fan” to fanboy... my point was the shifting arguments from technical to personal, but, as you said, I wouldn’t take “fanboy” as the worst offense.
Anyway, I didn’t mean to name calling you... maybe you’re drifting to personalization again.

Regards.

Locutus73

 

[Malenko]

Jesus dude, even when you're half-heartedly apologizing you still shift the blame. Amazing.

There was never a shift in the conversation on my part.
You seem to have a WANT for features that aren't supported in the stock bios, that are supported by an aftermarket bios.You then imply the lack of support in an aftermarket cart for the aftermarket bios to be the fault of the aftermarket cart.

That's my interpretation of your posts.

 

[Mitsurugi-w]

Everyone calm down or I'm going to have to start deleting posts.

 

[Locutus73]

Jesus dude, even when you're half-heartedly apologizing you still shift the blame. Amazing.

There was never a shift in the conversation on my part.
You seem to have a WANT for features that aren't supported in the stock bios, that are supported by an aftermarket bios.You then imply the lack of support in an aftermarket cart for the aftermarket bios to be the fault of the aftermarket cart.

That's my interpretation of your posts.

Nope, I don’t want/ask for special features, my reasoning is more generic and is about the basic feature of a hardware emulator: replicating the functional behavior of the emulated hardware in both regular and edge cases. A flashcart is a hardware emulator of a real cart and shouldn’t be designed around any bios (stock or aftermarket) or any other software (i.e. games) in its core functionality, it should just functionally behave as a real cart (at least after a game is loaded) both in regular cases (stock bios) and edge cases (aftermarket bios). Same input=same output as real hardware, that’s all about emulation. Edge cases are what differentiate accurate emulation from approximate one. Bios (or games which are software like bios) should be transparent, it shouldn’t be part of the equation. I agree that BIOS can be part of the equation for the cart menu software and/or booting sequence, which is basically a software running on the Neo Geo, so relying on BIOS (i.e. garbled logo), but, after the game is loaded the flashcart behavior should be 1:1 with real carts so it should work with Unibios or whatever works with real carts. It’s the basic, core functionality, not a requested special feature.

P.S.: I was explaining, not apologizing.

Regards.

Locutus73

 

[jassin000]

The fanboyism argument was raised by jassin000 who felt involved in the discussion

Just though I could solidify a few key points about how the UniBIOS behaives.
But I also didn't want to come off as a drama fanboy because let's face it, Ras and DS issues have attracted drama charged opinions in the past.

Not trying to promote drama mind you, just acknowledging yes it does exist.

I came in a little late, so I missed the start of the "conversation" incorrectly assuming it was about the "dreaded UniBIOS scrambled NG logo" haha.
Notice how awesomely @Sp33dFr34k corrected me BTW?

Even though that's true afaik @jassin000, I believe the reason for the above discussion is the function of the aes mode in the unibios with the multicart.

Dudes got class.

 

[xodaraP]

I can't believe this discussion is still even happening.

- It was always said from day 1 that the UniBIOS didn't work 100% with the MVS multicart, but that it would be rectified in a later firmware update or the features replicated in the cart itself.

- Features from the UniBIOS have already been added to the multicart

- You can still use the UniBIOS with original carts if you insist on using console mode

- The current level of emulation is emulating an original cart, on original hardware, on an original BIOS (firmware). Most emulators start out this way (it took SNES emulators years to run at 100% with 100% compatibility with edge cases and it took even more years for a hardware emulation solution to exist which STILL doesn't have 100% compatibility)

- DS didn't design, write or have anything to do with the UniBIOS and as I understand it has been careful to try to have as little to do with it as possible. The author asked him to block their CPS2 decrypted files on the CPS2 multi board and it's entirely possible the author has also asked him to not support the UniBIOS here (pure speculation, please don't quote me on that)

We all get it, you've made 50 complaints about it and counting. You want 100% compatibility with everything. It will eventually happen. Just like the SD2SNES (which has only just started supporting SA-1 in a beta fashion, only recently started supporting SuperFX and I think still has issues with DSP-1) there's no silver bullet.

If you're not happy with the Neo multicart as it is now, purchase it later when it has the features and support you want. Otherwise, shut up and enjoy it since it has 100% compatibility with all the GAMES, 99% of which work 100% which is more than most flash carts offer this early on and wait for the firmware updates to catch up. This is early adoption.

Rant over.
If you want drama, take it outside.

This thread needs to get back on track, it's a help thread. If you have complaints about features or want more added, there's a features thread for that, or start a new one. @Mitsurugi-w has better things to do than delete posts in a help thread :/

 

[djsheep]

If you want drama, take it outside.

or go to Neo-Geo forum

 

[Malenko]

No worries on this end, I tap out. The two of us have a fundamentally different opinion of what hardware is, what the BIOS does, and what the DS Cart should do and no amount of back and forth is going to change either of our opinions.

 

[Darksoft]

I see there is a lot of confussion. We're preparing an official and clear answer, but anyways any of you with a multimvs and a unibios can do a simple test. And you'll find out if there are any issues besides the logo when choosing console mode in the unibios.

 

[Locutus73]

We all get it, you've made 50 complaints about it and counting.

I did 0 complaints, I was replying to a help request from @plx2016 and specifically to people saying that a specific request was inopportune; my replies was about the theoretical emulation goal.

You want 100% compatibility with everything. It will eventually happen.

I never stated I wanted 100% compatibility now. If you ask me, I think that an emulator (software or hardware) ultimate goal should be, as Byuu (Higan dev) uses to say, 100% compatibility 90% of time, meaning that there should be no documented inaccuracies and, when one is discovered, it should be resolved as quickly as possible. But this is obviously a goal for an old and mature project, nobody asks something like this from a new project like this. In fact...

If you're not happy with the Neo multicart as it is now, purchase it later when it has the features and support you want.

…please quote a single post of mine where I say I’m not happy with the Neo multicart as it is now. @plx2016 asked for help, someone said that this specific request was out of the flashcart goal, I said that this was a catch 22 scenario, people jumped at me and I explained why this should be a theoretical correct goal for a hardware cart emulator. And let me stress the theoretical aspect, because I asked for a double check, implying that the inaccuracy is hypothetical until proven.

Otherwise, shut up and enjoy it since it has 100% compatibility with all the GAMES, 99% of which work 100% which is more than most flash carts offer this early on and wait for the firmware updates to catch up. This is early adoption.

Last time I was said “shut up and enjoy” was nearly 40 years ago when I was a kid and my parents took me to the church… this is the Internet, this is a forum and we’re here to discuss. I know what early adoption is and I know that we can discuss project goals.

This thread needs to get back on track, it's a help thread.

Indeed, all this discussion started from a help request.

If you have complaints about features or want more added, there's a features thread for that, or start a new one. @Mitsurugi-w has better things to do than delete posts in a help thread :/

Again, I have no complaints, and the MVS/AES+region Unibios vs Neo multicart “feature” was already discussed back then in the feature thread… and IIRC @Darksoft already gave a very satisfactory answer saying he’s going to optionally disabling these features on the flashcart in presence of Unibios, implying that the flascart and the custom bios won’t conflict.



Best regards.

Locutus73

 

[Locutus73]

If you want drama, take it outside.

or go to Neo-Geo forum

I know this is very off topic.
In my very specific, personal, short experience, I didn’t get any drama on NG. Much trolling, yes, but that’s some sort of weird dark humour etiquette over there: you post something, you get trolled and, if you have quick reflexes, you reply with a satirical post, but no drama, even when I openly talked with Razoola and ROT about my DS multicart purchase in chat.
Here it’s the second time people (ironically not the admins/developers) jump at my throat after I discussed something not in line with the common sentiment.

Regards.

Locutus73