What monitor to buy?

[darksofter]

Hello everyone,

I have a micomsoft xrgb mini framemeister and I was very happy because it promised what it was suppose to do. After being on a retro convention and seeing those PVMs and BVMs, I know I want these professional monitors. Still, what type of monitor is suitable for me? Arcade CRT? Arcade 15khz lcd? PVM? BVM?

I have many retro consoles but also some arcade pcbs such as the mvs, PGM and CPS2.

What are the benefits between arcade monitors and professional CRTs?

Also, availability and price have become a big issue now. The price Used Professional CRTs have skyrocketed. Arcade monitors seem to be priced good but without having chassis around these things seem a bit dangerous.

I am looking to hearing your opinions on this topic.

 

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

Honestly it all comes down to eye site and preference plus how much are you willing to spend.. I had tried 3 different kinds of the 20" PVM and one BVM, the one that Fudoth said is best. Then I acquired a 29" NEC and a 29" Mitsubishi. I run MAME and all my consoles to RGB. I spent a good amount of money.. For MAME I wanted something dedicated and got two tri sync WG9800 and WG9200 but they are on a wooden box.. Then I got two Egreets II.

For me here is what works but that depends on you room or space size.. For retro console the NEC followed by the PVM 5L multi sync.. For MAME get two dedicated candy cabs.. A member at SHUMPs had two AShtomishwave for $1500 they were perfect for MAME.. I passed on them because I only have room for two cabs ( NNC and Vewlix) left at my place.. What I am trying to say is take your time and find what you want.

The Sony FW900 is the most beautiful monitor that I have ever seen for none 15khz staff and a few of my fellow SHMUPS members said that they work great with an XRGB3 and retro consoles

 

[SmokeMonster]

I have two PVMs and really love them: a Sony PVM-2030 and PVM-1944Q. The 2030 is especially nice since it has a built in amplifier. There isn't a lot of selection near me, so I had to travel a considerable distance to get them.

 

[darksofter]

Thanks for sharing your experience with us. How was the price? I feel sellers are pricing them way too high considering that these monitors are about to break down. Also, they take up a lot of space for them. Of course you may argue that first owners paid thousands of dollars for them. I have a feeling that most sellers are previous employees who have worked at these media studios who might have gotten these monitors for free. Of course this is all speculations.

 

[rewrite]

I have two PVMs and really love them: a Sony PVM-2030 and PVM-1944Q. The 2030 is especially nice since it has a built in amplifier. There isn't a lot of selection near me, so I had to travel a considerable distance to get them.

That's the ONE thing that the NEC XM29/37 doesn't have. I've got a Behringer amp on top of my 37. Had a 2030 for ages, I love that model, even if it needs the stupid proprietary CMPTR cable for RGB. The 20L5 is pretty slick too since it goes all the way up to 1080i, it just hates syncing with some devices.

I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone refer to BVM/PVM's as "about to break down", OP. They get thousands upon thousands of hours on them and still look new.

What do you feel is a fair price for one?

 

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

Prices are all over the map and it depends on availability and how much people are willing to pay. In my area, these things are rare, the NEC 29 plus is like a pink unicorn or something.. The BVM 24" those go for scary prices now on eBay. I was running out of room and sold my BVM and PVM a while ago.. but then I filled the room again with Taito LCDs monitor. But here is a little secret...if for some reasons i need to sell all my toys again. I will just go to craiglist and grab two free 19" PC CRT and emulate the hell out of everything.. This is what I recommend that you do and save yourself while you still can. Once you jump into the RGB bandwagon and accumulating PVMs, it all goes down hill from there... I have spent quite a bit of money on my RGB\MAME\Arcade adventure.

 

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

"hat's the ONE thing that the NEC XM29/37 doesn't have" MY NEC has built in AMP and speakers..
"it just hates syncing with some devices." I never had issue syncing with any of my RGB consoles.. Maybe your cables?

 

[rewrite]

I have spent quite a bit of money on my RGB\MAME\Arcade adventure.

You and me both... But I'm down to just needing a Gamecube and a Dreamcast and my console RGB purchase adventures are over.

NEC XM29 *are* pink unicorns. PVM/BVM are available any day of the week out here, and in my opinion, at reasonable prices. I got my NEC XM37 Plus only because I know a guy who stockpiled some. They're as good just as the 29, but 75lbs heavier... I will hire movers when I finally leave this place, because I'm not moving that beast again.

"it just hates syncing with some devices." I never had issue syncing with any of my RGB consoles.. Maybe your cables?

I could never get it to sync with my SFC. Never. Different cables, ran it through an Extron that changed syncs, could never get it to sync. Gave up on it.

MY NEC has built in AMP and speakers..

I'm using 4ohm arcade speakers out of a Drummania. The NEC XM37 Plus only supports hm external speakers, can't power the DM speakers with it. It has built in ones, but they're meh.

 

[SmokeMonster]

They are built really well inside with quality caps and nice soldering, so even if problems turn up you still have a good chance of being able to fix them.

That's the ONE thing that the NEC XM29/37 doesn't have. I've got a Behringer amp on top of my 37. Had a 2030 for ages, I love that model, even if it needs the stupid proprietary CMPTR cable for RGB. The 20L5 is pretty slick too since it goes all the way up to 1080i, it just hates syncing with some devices.
I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone refer to BVM/PVM's as "about to break down", OP. They get thousands upon thousands of hours on them and still look new.

What do you feel is a fair price for one?

Nice. Those NEC XM29s look incredible. Yeah, the proprietary cable really limits the 2030 to people who can make their own cables. I really don't get why they dropped the BNC connectors for RGB/S.

I would love to get a 30khz hi-def PVM one day for newer consoles.

I bought my first PVM from a rich dude with a video editing business, and the other was from someone who didn't know what they had. I didn't pay much for them ($50 for the 1944Q and $100ish for the 2030), but I would pay a lot for them now in retrospect if I had to. They solved all of the problems I used to struggle with and their picture quality is jaw-dropping.

 

[rewrite]

I bought my first PVM from a rich dude with a video editing business, and the other was from someone who didn't know what they had. I didn't pay much for them ($50 for the 1944Q and $100ish for the 2030), but I would pay a lot for them now in retrospect if I had to. They solved all of the problems I used to struggle with and their picture quality is jaw-dropping.

I bought my first, a 37" BVM from a guy who had been using it as his TV in his cabin. When they sold the cabin, he didn't know what to do with it. Delivered to my door for $25. Even helped me get it up the stairs. Lost my job later that year, and had a guy drive from upstate NY to Southern ME to pick it up for $650, back in 2009.

20L5 came from a crazy cat guy with a TON of vintage music recording stuff just outside Hollywood. He'd stolen the PVM's from the dumpster behind some studio years ago and had at LEAST 30 of them taking up a corner of his living room. Want to say I paid 200 for that. Every other one I've owned was $150 or less. Have had a dozen or so by now. The 2030 is the one I kept going back to, mostly due to its small size and weight. Sold that and now just have the XM37 Plus.

 

[kardus]

If you're having trouble finding a PVM/BVM/NEC/JVC monitor in your area for a reasonable price, the next compromise if you're interested in CRTs is to look for a late-model SD sony trinitron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron/WEGA - stick to the 480i or under models at the bottom that have component that aren't 'hi-scan'). Only caveat to this is that you will have to forgo RGB, unless you have the skills to RGB mod the display yourself. If your consoles are RGB modded you'd need something to convert RGB to component (YPbPr) although that can be done fairly cheaply and effectively with minor loss of fidelity.

Since they are just regular TVs they will work just fine with all your 15khz consoles as you'd expect, and will typically handle a combination of multiple RF, composite, S-video, and component inputs. The best thing about these is that countless units get thrown out or donated on a daily basis so you shouldn't have too many problems finding one for free or dirt cheap (<$30). Although they were a consumer product, many of the later trinitrons will probably surpass a lot of the older professional broadcast/arcade monitors in terms of picture quality, even over component or s-video.

 

[jassin000]

I had a PVM (14L5) and loved it, only problem was the size... At 14" it was just too small, I sold it for 150$ last year.

Really I'm surprised a fellow xRGB Mini owner is looking to buy a CRT.
The largest PVM/BVM that's worth a shit maxes out at 20" that's just too small for a real man.

The XM29 and large 30"+ PVM's are IMO poor quality and waaay over rated.
At that size they are not using 800 line tubes, but 600 line... Making them only slightly better then owning a Sony Wega/Trinatron retail tube.

Check out the prices on this... Jesus fuck! That's just one (really bad) example, but I personally wouldn't give 'em more then 200$ for that if it was complete.

Now Speed runners will bitch and moan that LCD's lag too much for a proper run, and for them that's a valid concern...
Are you counting frames, trying to get the lowest possible frame rule transition for a record time?

I've got a 32" BenQ gaming LCD hooked to my xRGB, 16ms lag from conversion, 2ms display lag puts me under 20ms seconds total.
Sure its lag, but 20ms? Its near impossible for a human to even observe without resorting to counting frames.

 

[twistedsymphony]

I have a 20" PVM that I use on my work bench... works great with any RGB modded consoles or 15K arcade boards. I bought it for $150 locally, the guy had (still has I think) 3 of them for sale for around $250 but no one around here know what these things are or what they're worth so this poor sap can't sell them. I talked him down to $150 because it sat unsold for so long and had a broken composite terminal (which took me all of 10 minutes to fix). Prices vary all of the country due to demand and availability.

I agree with jassin that it's too small to make gaming on it really enjoyable (full disclosure: I typically game on a 108" projector setup so my perspective on screen size may be skewed).

The NEC XM displays might support RGB but I really hate the shadow mask on them, I feel like it ruins the scan lines and makes the picture look more like an interlaced image even when it's not. PVMs are gorgeous by comparison.

Candy cabs are what you want for proper CRT arcade gaming. Nice 27" monitor. Arcade monitors vary in quality from model to model but for 27" dual or tri sync Nanao is king IMO.

For 19" or 25" 15K arcade monitor the Wells Gardner k7000 is fantastic. I've owned 3 of these and with just a simple cap kit (which is super easy on these boards) I'd say the color and clarity on these things rivals that of a PVM easily.

I've debated building a case for a 27" arcade monitor to use for RGB Console gaming, but I'm thinking a modded late model Sony Trinitron TV might be better. You can get them in nice big sizes (4:3s up to 36" I believe) and they have a similar shadow mask design to PVMs which makes them better than the NECs IMO. Of course you have to crack them open and modify them to get RGB support, but honestly you should be planning on capping any arcade monitor you buy as well.

 

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

"The XM29 and large 30"+ PVM's are IMO poor quality and waaay over rated.
At that size they are not using 800 line tubes, but 600 line..."

It all depends on eye site.. At 800 or 1000 lines I find that only the NES looks good but not the rest of the consoles.. To sharp and small scanlines. 600 lines seem perfect to my eyes and the monitor scanlines and everything that I feed to those monitor look fantastic, retro look.

Xrgb mini - I used it for about 5mis but never again. My eyes did not like what I sow.. Not one bit.. I just dislike the ghosting/blur that you get when you are moving a character on an LCD. I setup the XRGM mini and put Mario and as soon as Mario moved I was like F that. Again preference

On my previous posting I always mention the Sony FW900.. Hunt one Dow and play in that for about 3 weeks straight. Then look or play on an LCD, you will start thinking that your eyes or mind is going nuts and that you are seeing things on the LCDs.. Things like blur, frame skips, slow downs etc. The FW900 is the best monitor that I have ever used period. The FW900 picture quality and the smoothness is something to be seeing. Playing Wii U games like Mario is super, you will not see any blur when you move Mario on any level.. Everything feels like GSYNC but look incredible and the colors just pop out at you.

 

[twistedsymphony]

FWIW I've seen people in Japan build enclosures for arcade monitors... some of them are pretty well done.

 

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

OMG I need and want two..My boxes are monstrosities

 

[jassin000]

Xrgb mini - I used it for about 5mis but never again. My eyes did not like what I sow.. Not one bit.. I just dislike the ghosting/blur that you get when you are moving a character on an LCD. I setup the XRGM mini and put Mario and as soon as Mario moved I was like F that. Again preference

Ghosting isn't lag caused by scaling... It was the actual lag (transition from one color to another G2G) on the LCD panel you were using.

Did you ever own a Turbo Express as a kid? Its the best example I can think of, unplayable ghost blur esp on small sprights like Bonk.

If I put the xRGB Mini on a poor monitor, I can expect poor results, that really has little to do with scaling 15khz to 31khz.
I think you need to see it on my BenQ 32" (2ms lag) or Sony 50" (14ms lag), I could show off some stills but seeing it in motion makes all the difference here.

 

[penrhos]

If you have the woodwork skills and are confident with wiring, find yourself an arcade cab with a burn-in free 25" or 29" 15Khz monitor- something crap like Golden Tee and gut it. Build a nice wooden cube to fit the monitor & chassis inside so you don't get killed using it and build yourself a supergun to run it.

Having said that my current test rig is a Sega Megalo running through an XRGB-2 onto a 42" Plasma monitor - which is cool....

 

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

Xrgb mini - I used it for about 5mis but never again. My eyes did not like what I sow.. Not one bit.. I just dislike the ghosting/blur that you get when you are moving a character on an LCD. I setup the XRGM mini and put Mario and as soon as Mario moved I was like F that. Again preference

Ghosting isn't lag caused by scaling... It was the actual lag (transition from one color to another G2G) on the LCD panel you were using.
Did you ever own a Turbo Express as a kid? Its the best example I can think of, unplayable ghost blur esp on small sprights like Bonk.

If I put the xRGB Mini on a poor monitor, I can expect poor results, that really has little to do with scaling 15khz to 31khz.
I think you need to see it on my BenQ 32" (2ms lag) or Sony 50" (14ms lag), I could show off some stills but seeing it in motion makes all the difference here.

I know what you mean and I am not talking about lag... I was using a Dell U2414H.. TFCentral did a review on this monitor and it is great.. I just can not stand that Ghosting thing.. It makes me want to punch something or someone .. that is why I am a CRT kind of guy.. and yes the bigger the CRT the better.


http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2414h.htm"the Shmups guys recommended DELL U2414H IPS"

 

[darksofter]

It's so cool to read about all your responses. I feel a little intimidated by the plethora of monitors a lot of you guys own. Right now it all seems that patience is the key. Thus I would be very glad if someone in this community could help me acquire my first PVM.